I think we need need to discuss the homework rules a little...
In this thread, Neo is concerned that I may have helped someone with homework. I actually worried a little about that as I posted. But I decided that if a student was to turn in my script as his work, the instructor would probably figure it out. And I think the OP defended the question anyway.
When I wonder if a question is homework, one of the things I look for is artificial restrictions on the tools which can be used. And another thing I do is to click on the "search" button and look at any other postings by the same user. These things caused me to ignore this thread.
And in this thread, I ummm, well, broke the rules. But the OP had done quite a bit of work herself and was stuck on an issue that would trip up almost anyone.
And finally, I think that I should speak up and mention that someone has emailed their homework to me. I ignored it, but I was tempted to email back a bunch of bogus answers Emailing homework to posters is not explicitly prohibited. Perhaps it should be.
I have no problem with the homework rule. You don't do anyone any favors by doing their homework for them. And I have a strong dislike for anyone who expects others to do all their work.
But what should we do when we suspect a posting is a homework assignment? Ignore it? Post a "homework alert" message? Query the OP? And when someone is stuck but has done a lot of work is an exception allowed?
We should look at homework as would the professor teaching the class who assigned the homework. I do not think that teachers want their homework answered on forums. They want the student to work it on their own... and if they can't do it, then work harder
How do you know questions are homework? You can't always know, but generally when a poster first registers and then asks a generic homework-like question, then that is enough to know. With the poster you are talking about, I was generous and did not delete the poster immediately. It is an obvious homework problem to me.... no real world explaination of use in a daily work environment. Perhaps it was not homework.... we can't be 100 percent sure.... however, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, quacks like a duck........
These are judgement calls, and we reserve the right to make that judgement. The homework rule is not for the benefit of the student as much as it is for the integrity of the boards in the eyes of the teachers and professors. Students who cheat, will do so regardless of what we do here. Good students will not ask others to do their work for them......
For those unsure, just don't answer, or ask the original poster to discuss the real-world example first. Getting them to discuss the real world example will flush them out.... hopefully.
Anyway, a clever student will couch the homework in a 'real world example' so there is no way to know 100 percent ... we just need to discourage it..... (without becoming the HW police).
An ongoing issue this one I know....I just replied to a thread which clearly was homework (they stated it was!). What I suggested to them was firstly to read the rules (of course) and then to use the search functionality - as a form of research.
Having studied myself, something like this forum has a lot of information that would be helpful - seeing other real world examples to 'help' me figure out my problems. I would suggest that while we definitely won't do peoples homework for them... a standard response which is a bit friendlier than 'go away' would be 'read the rules - and - use the search'
Altho i completely support the rule on NO HOMEWORK questions.
I think it would be of some benifit to have a homework section. That way people will not try to slide in a homework question. and those of us that feel like we can help (when we want to) can go there adn do so. or we can completely ingnore it if we need to.
for alot of us spoting a HW questions is easy. but then again. i know when i was knew it is HARD to come by information from those who have it.
Shouldn't the student be getting help from their instructor? I feel that a homework section would quickly become abused and not be used for its intended purpose.
i do agree that students should get help from there teacher. BUT im my little experiance from school in general. teachers dont have the time to help there students these days, and offten students are left in the dark.
I mean dont get me wrong. im not saying lets do there homework for them. but as Perderabo said (in context) "if they did 80+% of the work and are haveing trouble why not lend a helping hand and offer ideas to further encourage the student to think a diffearnt way or offer another suggestion to the initial problem.
also i think it should be noted that the homework section is for ppl wanting to LEARN not to slack.
i dont advicate direct answers most of the time even in professional questions. but i do enjoy tossing out an idea or a hint as to where to find the answer. This encourages reading and further studying and deters the slacker from trying to step in "our" fields.
things such as this should be exsplicily told in the "homework forums" rules.
the good thing about haveing a homework section is:
1) we are not obligated to answer any question
2) hopefully it will keep all unprof. questions out of the actual forums.
3) it offers real students to voice there issues where real help could be needed. (this also goes for new ppl to unix in general looking for basic assistance.)
i have no problem tossing a dog a bone when im not burning bridges and steping on heads. laf.....
Having a homework section would hurt the reputation of the forums. It is not ethical for students to ask people outside of their school to do their work for them. I graduated from the university, as did many here, and I never posted a h/w problem to a forum.
That is what textbooks and libraries are for. Call me old-fashioned...........
If a University professor OKs it for us to do the h/w problems of his students, and moderates the forum himself, then I think we should reconsider.
Neo, this thread is closed. How are folks supposed to respond to your query? (I opened it long enough to post this.)
I'm not sure what the best policy is. But I don't think that I am really doing anyone a favor by doing their assignments for them.
If we do allow homework questions, I think people are more apt to get a useful response if they show some evidence of a reasonable attempt to help themselves rather than simply posting the question.
Thanks for reminding me it was closed. One problem with being an admin is that you can post to closed threads; so, I opened it again and pose the question:
Do we need a homework section? Should that section be moderated (must be reviewed first by a moderator)?
Or, is the issue closed for another year and let's keep things the way they are?
I was about to post a long reply to this thread, but I envisioned a long argument with the O.P.
But after looking at that thread, I really think the unix.com policy should be to not help students with homework, no matter how "stuck" they say they are or how far along they appear to be. I know some past posts involved students posting what they had completed so far and you could tell they really were making every effort and were stuck. But I don't think their teachers would be happy if they could come to unix.com and have someone here finish their assignment for them, no matter how close they are. If the student is almost there, then I believe the teacher would much rather the student come to them so s/he can decide how and how much to help the student.
It's true they can still search unix.com and the rest of the Internet looking for answers, but at least they'll have to be critical about what they find and there's no one consciously just handing it to them..
Emailing homework to posters is not explicitly prohibited. Perhaps it should be.